Sunday, July 19, 2009

#90 Being pro-life while simultaneously supporting the war


One of the tenets of Christianity is that life is sacred. Because of this Christians oppose abortion. They could talk about it till the cows come home.


By and large, people in Christian culture also support the war in Iraq. The considerable loss of innocent life during war doesn't seem to strike them as any sort of inconsistency.


Christian culture isn't big on entertaining the notion that their political views could be anything other than what God has decreed. Abortion and war aren’t very savory subjects in the first place. They become more palatable when we form black-and-white views on them (from either political side) and cling to them unflinchingly. This often happens at the expense of relationships with whom we disagree. But Jesus taught that relationships and love are a priority, and that politics aren't of much consequence.


It's a lot easier to place issues in a box (whether they’re liberal or conservative) and deal with them remotely, without engaging the people who hold them.

71 comments:

Mikey Lynch said...

Important issue, Stephy.

A couple of thoughts:

1. War in Iraq abortion may be similar in the sense that they is actually no realy justification for them, even thought people will get very self-righteous in arguing there is.

2. A justifiable war against a true aggressor is actually pretty different. Not as if an unborn child is trying to bomb your or anything! The only real parallel would be with a life-threatening pregnancy, when many pro-lifers would allow for the possibility of abortion.

Steve Hayes said...

Tenants?

Looks more like a squatter to me.

stephy said...

I misspelled tenents! And also unflinchingly. Doy.

Mary said...

And something else: Pro-life people are usually pro-death penalty. The USA is the only western country in the world that still upholds the death penalty. I don't understand.

massminuteman said...

I misspell 'tenets' a lot too. ;-)

Abortion is a curious issue. The modern world is hard to argue against in many ways. But abortion is a concrete aspect of it that people who don't like it can grasp and assert to be proof of its moral inadequacy or worse.

This 'consistent life ethic' thing has always struck me as usually 0 for 3 in practice.

Trev said...

God made it clear in the OT that there is often cause for War AND abortion, it's funny how Christians have picked and chosen their stances based on...uh...god knows.

Steve said...

Excellent post. I myself am a seamless garment person, and have been intrigued by the inconsistencies on both sides, liberal and conservative--those who oppose war but approve abortion are just as inconsistent as those who support the war and oppose abortion.

Simone said...

Good point, Steve. I'm a liberal who mostly opposes war (but sometimes it is necessary) and more or less abortion (also sometimes necessary) I still think it should remain legal.

I've long struggled to say that I'm on the fence about abortion as I don't think there's a black or white reasoning for or against it. I'm on the fence and I'm no longer ashamed to say it. As much as unwavering pro-lifers annoy me, so do relentless screams of "right to choose". I agree with that, sure. You had a right to choose a condom! (in most cases and I guess not if you're Catholic.)

Daniel Kirk said...

The funny thing I see in this, too, is that Christians will then often turn to the NT and say that Jesus' message wasn't political (especially when confronted with the question of war). Somehow that all is supposed to hang together? Hmmm...

Ben parsons said...

Good one Steph- this reminds me of how I'm unable to recocile "Jesus" with "god". According to scripture god wasted tons of people- kids, pregnant women, etc. But then Jesus is presented as this gandhi-like hippy, until Revelation, when he starts bowl-of-wrathing almost everybody. My conclusions: the scripture is flawed/innacurate, or god has dissociative identity disorder, or this whole thing is made up, or some combination of these.

Noelle said...

Intriguing stuff Steph... if this really is the reality in American christian culture then i totally agree with the point you're making... but I also really liked Steve's comment too... kind of flipped it a bit. But I have to genuinely ask is this exclusive to American christian culture? Here in the UK I've not yet met a single person be it christian, athiest, agnostic, or of any other faith that is pro-war... I'm not saying they don't exist but it's certainly not the majority. It's very UNcool to be pro-war here...

Noelle said...

Sorry - I've just read the sub-title of your blog 'american evangelical culture' - I got to this post through a link on facebook and failed to clock the title - so that answers my question above. Apologies.

The Klentzmans said...

Can i be pro-killing-people-who-are-trying-to-kill-me? And also pro-not-killing-innocent-little-babies? Is that being inconsistent? Love your blog Stephy.

chris_l_miller said...

I still can't tell where your loyalties lie. It's obvious you spend a great deal of time in or around American Christian Culture. And your stuff is witty and sometimes funny. But the problem I have with your blog in general is one that I share with you. I too am a cynic and have blogged cynical blogs in the past about this very thing. The unfortunate thing about being a cynic is that it me start to filter out the good things and look for only the bad. Just my two cents. Also, you forgot to mention that Christians are generally ok with abortions that take place in Iraq, since it saves bombs. (See I can be funny!)

stephy said...

Hi Chris and Klentzmens,
I am not sure where my loyalties lie either. There is a lot in scripture to wrestle with and I'm finally getting around to doing that and realizing there is a lot I'm not sure of. But I believe that the point behind Jesus' teachings is to have a tender heart and own your own fallenness. Beyond that, there is a lot to wrestle with but I think that is a big part of relationship (with God and others) - entering into the chaos and gray area while loving others well, and I feel strongly that Christian culture misses this and focuses more on Doing Things and Avoiding Relationship (I said it like that in some old post, not sure which one). My hope here is to get people thinking about how Jesus is separate from the culture instead of just accepting it as part of the gospel.

Badnewz said...

I don't agree with your view on Jesus' teachings. It seems to me that everything Jesus taught was about having faith in HIM, trusting in HIM for forgiveness of sin so that we might be reconciled with God. It is not possible for us to "own our falleness"- Jesus says that there is nothing we can do to make up for our fallness except trust that he died and rose from the dead.

Our salvation surely effects the way we relate to people- but I believe Jesus' main concern is the state of our heart. God gave us the Bible, prayer, and intellect to help us decipher the gray areas.

On war and abortion- at least with war you could argue that it's purpose is to protect people from death or governmental persecution- ultimately protecting not your own life- but others.

The troubling thing about abortion is the FACT that 98% of them have nothing to do with any kind of medical need- meaning most babies are aborted due to inconvenience to the mother or father. What is the justification for killing a life for convenience sake?

Abortion makes war look like a noble cause....

stephy said...

By owning our own fallenness I mean that we (if we are to believe Jesus) realize we suck and need his help. I do not mean that there is anything we can do to earn God's favor.

chris_l_miller said...

I understand where you're coming from. I took a long time to decide if I really wanted to give Jesus part of my life or if it was a crock. I honestly can say that between my understanding of the Bible, it's historical/spiritual context and my experiences, I trust Jesus and the Bible to be entirely true.
And if you decide to take the plunge, don't do it because I said so but because you know Jesus personally.
I found that it was awfully hard to decide while I was actively criticizing God's flock. I do think we should be able to make fun of ourselves, and maybe that's your intent, but it changed me. I stopped blogging altogether. If you want to see it check it out. No, this is not some lame attempt to pimp my blog site. You'll see the dates associated with it.

mediocrelife.com

Monica said...

Love this post because it's something I've been seething about since 2003.

Though not a part of the evangelical culture, my mother is staunchly pro-life to the point of voting Republican even though she generally disagrees with the rest of the party platform.

In the 2008 election, she actually reconsidered her decision of being a single-issue voter. Her justification of voting for "the pro-choice party" was quite sound given her adamant views on abortion.

She figured "I'm pro-life because I'm against the killing of innocent people. If I vote Republican, I'm supporting the party that strongly supports a war that kills innocent Iraqi's, and de-facto killing of innocent American soldiers by sending them out for nothing more than fulfilling personal agenda's in an otherwise unjust, illegal war.

"Either way I chose, I'm essentially going against my pro-life beliefs. The legal implementations of pro-choice are fairly set, and another Republican administration probably can't do much to stop it. At least voting Democrat can have relatively immediate, tangible results in saving these other lives."

This is a big deal for my mom - who is the most NON-WAVERING when it comes to abortion - to realize the obvious contradiction. If she can see this I can't understand why the rest of them can't.

Monica said...

*I should probably note that when she said "innocent Iraqi's", she was referring particularly to the civilian deaths, which has most recently documented at around 92,500-101,000 since the start of the war.

skylana said...

noelle! nice to see you here! :) i like what you said A LOT.

and i am pro-choice, but i dont think that makes me not 'pro-life' being pro choice doesn't mean you love abortions. it doesn't mean you think its the best option or a great decision or what's 'right'... it just means you understand that others have the right to make that decision for themselves... and you understand that the point in which a human is a baby, a real human, with a soul and all is a gray area and maybe something we all need to determine on our own. i know and have agreed with my husband that if we did all that we should to not get pregnant and still did, we would have an abortion... i dont take that lightly but i know what i can handle and what is best for me and my family. no one else can claim to know that better than me and my husband. so i will work to not have a child... but sometimes that fails and in a case where it did, yes i would do what i needed to keep this life something i can deal with and remain sane. literally i dont know if i could stay sane with one more child. i'm not willing to run that risk and i'd like to reserve my right to choose abortion if need be.

i dont necessarily think one life is more important than another but it makes more sense to me to save a child that is already here than a fetus, if i had to make that choice....

the most important thing to me when it comes to abortion is that there is education. i wish pro life fanatics would spend their time educating instead of arguing. i wish people would realize that teaching abstinence is NOT helpful in avoiding teen pregnancy. i wish people would watch 16 and pregnant and understand the weight of the problem we have going on. both sides could use their time and money more wisely if we put down our arms, stopped the fight and worked together to make abortion something that doesn't need to happen as often.

i'm all about balance and compromise. we can't have it 'our way'...we just can't if we're all going to live together.

Carm said...

Yes, this is huge. A very divisive issue between some "former friends" and me. Hard to reconcile some of these contradictions in my mind. I guess you are saying the death penalty issue for another post!

Andrea June said...

This is partly what I'm writing my thesis on. I love that you wrote a post about it, because as a non-republican, pacifist Christian, the pro-war, Republican Christian culture is one of my biggest irritations. Well done!

chris_l_miller said...

I know people are firmly dug in on this issue and that chances are I'm not going to change anyone's mind of either issue. But let me put it to you this way: Most people who feel this way, who feel that Abortion should be illegal and that War on x-government is good have two sets of beliefs. The belief is that the life inside a woman shouldn't be allowed because the fetus/baby in question is separate from the woman/mother. This makes the fatus/baby helpless and choiceless; innocent.
The second belief is that war on is usually a horrible but necessary thing. Whoever the bad guys are "they all did wrong" or "are bad guys" or "are in league with bad guys."
I know I'm oversimplifying but I just want to get this point across. Christians who believe this way believe that unborn babies are innocent and that bad guys are not innocent. Unborn babies get no say. Bad guys have already had their say and now they get what they deserve.
Does this make sense? Not that one person could believe both things but does the statement above make sense? Like I said, I doubt that anyone's mind will change, but does anyone feel like they understand the Christians' argument a little better?

stephy said...

I think we're getting off the subject here - the point of this post is that Christian culture supports the war while the war kills SO MANY innocent babies, and other grown-up non-abortable bystanders. (Monica quoted some statistics above.)

The nebulous (at best) reasons for the Iraq war are also not discussed in Christian culture. This may be related to the support-America-at-all-costs mindset in Christian culture that I talked about in some previous posts.

This post actually isn't about the issues of abortion or war, it's about the conundrum of why people support political issues in the name of Jesus with what appears to be pretty brazen disregard for the implications of what they say they believe about Jesus.

chris_l_miller said...

I just dumbed it down for you. What is your opinion of what I said? Even if it's off your subject, just tell me if I make sense.

stephy said...

Chris, I think you might think I don't understand what Christian culture believes as far as innocent babies and bad guys. Is that what you meant by making sense? I'm confused.

chris_l_miller said...

That's all I meant. Thanks for listening. Very often in today's political climate there's no listening.

chris_l_miller said...

And sorry for the spelling. I know it grinds for some people to read.

stephy said...

That's okay, I misspell things all the time. I frickin spelled 'tenets' in this post like 'tenants' until someone pointed it out. Embarrassing.

Anonymous said...

I think the issue is less about the bad guys being killed, and more about all the innocent civilians (including children) who are killed in war.

Phil Haines said...

Can we PLEASE all STOP saying christian culture as if ALL of worldwide christian culture thinks this way... it does NOT... as someone also pointed out earlier. Even within America some of you may be surprised to know, christians are not pro war. ANd some christians are pro choice. And some christians are pro choice and pro war and some christians are pro life and anti war. Interestingly enough within the Islamic faith there are differing opinions also. Stop with the generalizing.

stephy said...

If this blog isn't generalizing, I don't know what is. Then again, there's a reason for stereotypes: they tend to be true. It's why police use criminal profiling.

Ross said...

BadNews:

In the book of Mark (the earliest of the cannon gospels) Jesus preaches the Kingdom of God and not Himself.

Penlyn said...

I agree with Mikey Lynch and the Klentzmens. I can't say I'm pro war but if you have ever talked to a soldier, they will tell you how they are changing lives being there but I am very pro life. Death is a terrible thing, war or abortion. Have you ever heard anyone speak of partial birth abortions? Or of babies who live a short time outside the mother and the nurses who have to watch them struggle to die. I would think that would give you pause. If you love GOD or not, that is wrong. Thank you

Monica said...

"Stuff that Predominately Fundamentalist, Evangelical Christian Culture Generally Within Non-Denominational Sects Typically Residing-Though Not Necessarily Limited To-Middle America And Suburbia, But Obviously Not Every Single One Of Them, Like."

Yeah, it's a bit of a mouthful to say every single time. I like the original title better.

stephy said...

Yikes, the point is really being missed by a few people. Penlyn, I would hope that war would give Christians just as much pause as abortion. I have never heard them talk about the innocent lives lost in war. What I've heard them say all my life is that they are pro-life because that is killing innocent babies, and they support the war effort because it means we are killing bad guys. But there is a ginormous glaring conflict of interests there because they do NOT speak of the innocent lives lost in war. And when we're in a war in a country where there isn't an apparent threat to our country (Iraq didn't attack us. Were there WMDs? Why are we over there????) then THAT flies in the face of God and I'm extremely disturbed that Christian culture does not talk about this side of the story and they endorse war in the name of Jesus Christ.

Andrea June said...

Jim Wallis (author of God's Politics) talks about the need for a "consistent ethic of life" that's largely missing within conservative, Evangelical political ideology. Basically, the idea is that ALL lives should be equally valued because God values life. This means that the concern felt for aborted fetuses should be equally matched with a concern for other lives, like people enslaved in sweat shops, civilian lives lost during wars, and those stuck below the poverty line. Basically, Christ compels us to be concerned with not only the existence of life, but also its quality. That's why the prophets made such a big stink when the government of the day wasn't treating people right.
I think that, as Christians, Stephy is completely right. It's completely inconsistent to care more about the victims of abortion than the victims of war. But then, we Americans don't tend to think far beyond our consumer-driven, self-centered tendencies, do we? I suppose it's too much to expect that people who are followers of Jesus be held to a higher standard when it comes to respecting life...

Steve said...

Andrea June,

Excellent post.

Christopher said...

Hey!

It's Christopher from St. Cynic. You left a remark on one of my articles, and I just wanted to thank you for visiting. I hope you come again, frequently.

I really enjoy your site here. It's very poignant, and relaxing to read, even if it exposes the stresses of the fallacious thinking in hyper-evangelical culture. I've linked your site to my theoblogy roll.

Take care,
Christopher

Jeff Boldt said...

Good stuff, I like how Barney Frank puts the "values" of the Christian Right. They are prolife from conception to birth after that they don't give a damn.

jackmatt said...

Stuff liberals like: They want terrorists who kill and cause suffering to be free from being held responsible for their actions but it is okay to reach into a womb and kill a human.

Its easy to slam on Christians. But remember the "stellar" example of those who set themselves against Christianity. Remember Christianity is following JESUS, not following any yahoo who comes along and claims to be a Chrisitan. I have an idea: lets set up a site talking about all the boneheaded things people do who reject Jesus. At the top of the list would be Communism and Nazism.

The human race is sick and needs a Savior. This site merely mocks those who turn to Christ for help.

Andrea June said...

@Jackmatt: I'm not a liberal, but I don't believe they should have hate spewed at them the way that your posts have. And just because someone is liberal doesn't mean that they are not Christian. Jesus came to save everyone, regardless of political philosophy. Why don't you stew on that one for awhile?

Penlyn said...

Stephy, I appreciate you being from a God loving family and your husband too. I think your thoughts might be a little different in about 25 years when you have lived life more accepting and not trying to associate Pro war with pro life.This whole subject smacks of the 60's. I don't know anyone who wants war, but defend we will. As for the wmd's, Iraq had 550 metric tons of yellow cake enriched uranium that was sent to Canada last year and also Hussain used chemicals to kill millions of Kurds, his own people including children. War is terrible and it will go on as it has for thousands of years. We have to have faith in God and pray. I can't do anything but write my congressmen about the war but I talk to anyone who will listen about abortion especially partial birth abortion because I don't think women really understands what that means. I,m sorry but I feel compelled to do so. Thank you.

stephy said...

Penlyn, thanks. I'm glad people are dialoguing (how do you spell that?) about this. I think dialogue is always better than monologue.
I definitely don't want to associate pro-war with pro-life, but they seem to have done that themselves already and that's why I feel compelled to write about it.

jackmatt said...

Hi Andrea June! I'm just illustrating absurdity by being absurd. I find many of the "observations" to be VERY stereotypical against sincere Christians. I'm feel I am using the same spirit of sarcasm and stereotype but just turning it around. My goal is not to offend anyone but to get people to think.

I think there are good reasons to be pro-life and, as much as I hate this term, pro-war. Yet the approach to the whole topic by the author of this website immediately puts me on the defensive. I don't have the time nor the emotional energy to defend my position so I just turn the posting inside out to illustrate the absurd stereotyping going on.

This same approach applies to the other posting of mine that you commented on.

Paul said...

Stephy,

Is that last bumper sticker real or fake?

Please, please, please tell me it's from The Onion or something...

PC

stephy said...

Sorry Paul, but it's real.

David said...

Ah yes, I was wondering when you were gonna get around to the mind-bending weirdness that is the Christian "Pro-Life, Pro-Death" position.

Ow! The cognitive dissonance - it hurts! ;)

Julie said...

all I can say is I know right!?! this is another topic that kills me inside, especially when other christians don't get it.

Flahdagal said...

@jackmatt -- examine why you were put on the defensive. It's difficult to accept the dissonance, isn't it? By god, save those fetuses at all costs, unless they happen to be in a war zone, then, tough luck, you must be a Bad Guy, since you didn't have the grace to be born in America.

Stephy's post is right on. You cannot support the destruction of innocent lives in the pursuit of some nebulous political gain, while at the same time saying every fetus is sacred.

And for those of you throwing out statistics about convenience abortions and partial-birth abortions, cite your sources, please. I'm not saying I don't believe you, but I will say that people make up numbers to back up their point of view, at least 65% of the time.

mgroves said...

I'd support total US withdrawl from everywhere and abolishment of the death penalty as part of a bill/ruling to make abortion illegal again.

Kyle said...

Um, am I missing the whole point, or would it be important to make note that "Pro-life" is a term used in the argument of abortion. The term itself has little to do, if at all, with war.

Is it fair to link those two terms together when their used in two separate topics altogether??

btw, this is my first time visiting this blog....i love it! I think a lot of it is hilarious and informative. But isn't this blog just turning around and placing judgment back on 'conservative christians'? Is that the goal here?

Rosa said...

A few years ago I was stuck in a large suburban Catholic church, listening to the priest, in his homily, pray for victory in Iraq. On Christmas Eve. It was so disturbing, I've managed to weasel out of ever going back (I stay home and watch the babies - Catholics are pro-baby as long as they don't make noise in church. The moms all end up outside the glass wall at the back, like the women's section of a mosque.)

skylana said...

hahhahah sorry but i LOVE all these christians who get all defensive and bent out of shape... all like "i'm a christian and i'm not like that, stop stereotyping!!!" usually when people get defensive and all pissed its cause they're guilty of what's being accused. hilar.

if someone stereotyped me and they were wrong, i wouldn't give a shit. cause i know who i am.

skylana said...

oh and i LOVE that bumper sticker, like as if planned parenthood is the one who decides which babies get aborted.

stephy said...

Skylana, totally. The defensiveness says a lot.

Shawn Wilson said...

I think it's easy as Christians to get caught up in the right vs. left, republican vs. democrat rat race. However, I think ALL America would be better if we just did one thing: Return to a Constitutional form of Government. Simply put America has lost her way because we have left our Founding principles. That's my 2 cents, Thanks.

Josh said...

Shawn Wilson said...

I think it's easy as Christians to get caught up in the right vs. left, republican vs. democrat rat race. However, I think ALL America would be better if we just did one thing: Return to a Constitutional form of Government. Simply put America has lost her way because we have left our Founding principles. That's my 2 cents, Thanks.

See blog number 16 and I hope you're not in violation of it

Darren said...

The question of Christian and war should be silenced by Jesus' words "Love your enemies". There is no way to weasel a different meaning out of those words that justifies killing people.

If anyone claims "I can love someone while killing them at the same time", I would personally stay far, far away from that person. Especially if they said they loved me.

As for abortion, I am pro-choice, but strongly anti-abortion. Abortion should be legal, but nobody should ever choose it, unless the mother's life is in danger.

I also am anti-smoking, anti-getting-drunk, and anti-gluttony, but that doesn't mean that I think cigarettes and alcohol should be illegal, or that we should impose food-limits on people.

If Christians actually did their part in showing love to single mothers instead of judging them, very few people would even want to have abortions.

Tina said...

I would love for any one of these right wing Christians to spend a day in the NICU at an urban hospital and watch the birth of one and two pound helpless babies come into the world born to drug addicted prostitute mother...then watch these babies die. If that woman had ended this early these babies would not be norn to suffer with dozens of tubes and IV's in their tiny bodies.

I am so pro choice you right wingers could never even stand it.

Oh Happy Day! said...

Well, I must say that I AM pro-life & sometimes I actually do support war (if it's necessary and/or unavoidable). Now, putting those two into the same category (just like that) is sort of gullible...

As a student of International Relations (in England & in a secular university by the way) I have come to understand the difference between planned murder/or irresponsibility and national security.

I make no excuses for some of the unfortunate occurrences in war (rape, torture, deaths in general, etc...), but I find it unreasonable to judge something (war) without giving it a deeper insight!

Of course, there are some extreme examples that I have seen/heard personally...'Christians' just wanting those 'd%rn' Iraqis dead!??? WHAT!?!?!?

But sometimes it CAN actually be a matter of national security, or maybe just standing up for another country...I personally support the contemporary form of diplomacy, but how much can/should one country compromise in order to avoid any warring activity?

And doesn't excessive compromise turn one eventually into a 'political slut'? And is it actually possible to compromise without repudiating one's concerns? Maybe...maybe not...

Rich E said...

Prolife is protecting the unborn baby,(who can not speak or defend thems elf) since there is no draft, a person who enlist in military, generally knows what they are signing up for.

JeffEnsley said...

Awesome. Ron Sider covered this in "Completely Pro-Life". You shoulda mentioned capital punishment in tandem with/instead of war. Great blog. Thank you.

stephy said...

Capital punishment is a bit of a different argument than these since innocence isn't in question so it deserves its own post.

Anthony Jacques said...

I love pointing out scriptures that obviously don't support a pro-life stance. But the best is the defense of God's sovereignty in spite of these scriptures.

Like Numbers 5:14-24; an infidelity ordeal where a woman whose husband thinks she conceived with another man (committing adultery) would take her to the priest to drink a natural-abortion-inducing "bitter-water."

It was pretty common in the ancient world. Then there's....

Hosea 13:16:

The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open.

2 Kings 15:16:

At that time Menahem, starting out from Tirzah, attacked Tiphsah and everyone in the city and its vicinity, because they refused to open their gates. He sacked Tiphsah and ripped open all the pregnant women.

Then there's good old Psalm 137:8-9:

Happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us. He who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.

Based on this, and how I would never allow these types of things if I were in charge, I am pretty sure I'm more moral than God. :P

Anonymous said...

The same people who think their paycheck is inviolate think that a woman's body belongs to everyone but herself.

Condoms fail. Situations change. And pretending you are championing someone's life when all you are doing is limiting or taking(check out the countries where abortion is illegal) the life of their forced mother, and doing nothing else, is a certainly a hallmark of some cultures.

Nice blog.

Alex said...

Simone: "I agree with that, sure. You had a right to choose a condom! (in most cases and I guess not if you're Catholic.)"

I was going to stay mum, but I was so shocked by this ignorant, hateful and judgmental little nugget coming from a user whose comments I've tended like & agree with up until now. You have no idea of the circumstances or reasons surrounding every woman's pregnancy, and you have no place judging their decisions. That's your God's job anyway.

stephy said...

Hi Alex,
I was just thinking, if you've liked and agreed with Simone's other comments then maybe it's possible this particular comment she made isn't the things you said it was? Maybe it just struck you that way or maybe she was only attempting a joke? I just think if you approached her with a bit of good faith unto her intentions and told her your concerns it may get to the heart of the issue faster than using those heavy words (ignorant, hateful, etc). And as you know from previous comments that she is an atheist, your saying something is God's job anyway is something she can refute on the basis of her experience and then you guys will have gotten nowhere good.
I hope it's okay that I piped in on this. Thanks for reading and commenting.

Lennyb said...

This is one of my faves. Seems like left and right both want to kill people, they just differ on location, in the womb or out.

Extra fun to discuss how the Nagasaki bombing killed thousands of Christians who were descendents of believers from Francis Xavier's work there. Nobody wants to talk about a "Christian" bomber crew killing thousands of their brothers and sisters in Christ ...

Anonymous said...

Jesus' message is very clear. Mercy not sacrifice. Love not hate. Forgive. Love thy neighbor as thyself. Jesus will judge all humans after we die because he was human. I am pro-mercy. Women have died in their desperation to end their pregnancies - especially when contraceptives were illegal in U.S. Jesus can forgive and make all things new. Thousands of children are dead, maimed, or orphaned in Iraq. Thousands of people have been killed in wars instead of being sent the amazing beautiful good news of Christ. Thousands of people who want to believe in Christ are turning away in dismay and disgust at the hypocrisy of the evangelical far right movement that has gone so very, very wrong. Those ministers will have much to answer for if they meet Christ. Hold tight to that love, mercy, and forgiveness in your hearts. God IS LOVE and Christ was telling us that in the 4 gospels in the New Testament - Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. He quoted the old testament scriptures to bring understanding to the Jewish nation because their religious leaders knew those old teachings. But, Jesus brought a new message for all of us. Love. Forgiveness from God and for each other. Hope. Eternal life. Mercy. An amazing new spirit-filled life. I wish evangelical polĂ­tical campaigners would campaign for Christ instead. He won the war over evil through His love and obedience to God - not through force and war on humans. There is true power in a walk with Christ. God's love through His Son to mankind is extraordinary and makes us powerful. Not weak. I wish more evangelical right wing preachers had more faith in His power than in their so called "just wars". Christ NOT ONCE condoned war.